Curse

Does-it-Matter · Jun 10, 2007, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by icymanipulator

Thats a lovely analysis Does-it-Matter, but how about factoring in casting times and skill recharges? You are only looking at one piece of a 3 part puzzle. Then you have to consider that mesmers have fast casting to offset their spells. Elementalists have energy storage to offset their energy costs. Monks have Divine Favor to provide healing benefit therefore having to cast fewer spells to do the same amount of work.

One only has so much free time in the day, but thank you!

I had contemplated going into depth further, but my eyes started to bleed (figuratively) from reading through wiki page after wiki page.

But to comment on that briefly. I mentioned that unless you specifically loaded up with the three Necormancer 25-energy skills that each cast AND recharge in 4 seconds, you actually have to TRY to run out of energy from Spamming 25-energy skills (as from that point on, you have total cast+recharge times of six seconds for one skill, 8 for a few more and then the rest over 12 seconds each.)

As to the other professions' Primary attributes (in terms of energy, since that's what we were discussing.)

Mesmer: Fast Casting only increases the rate it will go through energy in a given time frame.

Elementalist: Assuming we go with a single-element build, you will have a lot of energy to deal with (my Fire Nuker tends to have about 93 energy). Elementalists also have a larger number of 25-energy skills compared to Necromancers AND have to deal with Exhaustion. Though, I find myself constantly using at least 2 energy management skills to maintain any bit of continuity.

Monks: Divine Favor doesn't necessarily apply to energy directly, but it does offset it since you don't need to cast as often if you heal for more. Monks tend to be more reactionary-based (with few Prot-builds aside.) You only work if there is a problem. Often enough, the only E-management I need to run on my Monk is Channeling. The only times I'm pressed for energy is if I get hit with a lot of E-denial, or the other monk (in large parties where people think 2 are required) gets into lots of trouble due to party over-aggro, lack of abilities, or bad luck.

Ritualist: With the possible update to Weapon Spells via Spawning Power, it will reduce the amount of spells needing to be re-applied. Also, if you run a Rt/N build you need to raise minions less if they have more life (negligible if you are an Rt/N Minion Bomber.) The recharge on spirits tends to exclude it from a health-based conversation on creations.

If I get a few more things out of the way today (and my eyes stop crossing!

) I might give this another long post based upon others comments. Other than that... my fingers and eyes need a rest.

Edit:

One thing I noticed after I posted this from YOUR edit.

Quote:

Edit: Also it should be noted that sure anyone can slap a bunch of 25e skills on the bar, it won't be a viable build under any circumstances. Yes this was hyperbole on your part but its still ridiculous. For the most part necro bars have 5e skills with the majority 10e and 1 or 2 15e spells tops, with a 25e being part of MM almost exclusively.

I agree with you completely. The reason I stated it, was WildmouseX made the claim that "again you are ignoreing the fact that many, in fact most of the necros usefull skills are 15-25e" and that s/he burns through up to 61 energy in five seconds or less (and that the energy due to SR: 59 on average in 15 seconds, eludes to "so wooptie do we gain enough energy to throw 2 more skills.") Ultimately, that was the reason for my long post, simply refuting that claim.

Miral · Jun 10, 2007, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Does-it-Matter

Monks: Divine Favor doesn't necessarily apply to energy directly, but it does offset it since you don't need to cast as often if you heal for more. Monks tend to be more reactionary-based (with few Prot-builds aside.) You only work if there is a problem. Often enough, the only E-management I need to run on my Monk is Channeling. The only times I'm pressed for energy is if I get hit with a lot of E-denial, or the other monk (in large parties where people think 2 are required) gets into lots of trouble due to party over-aggro, lack of abilities, or bad luck.

ya my monk almost never has to worry about energy. with so many powerful 5e spells that can be spammed... the only time energy is really a problem is in escort missions heavy with conditions and hexes (like the third major afflicted battle of vizunah square with them coming from all directions). other than that, rarely if ever below 25 energy. oh, except when using rebirth of course. but that doesn't really count as its used out of combat to recover from a near-wipe.
if you want to look for imbalance based on not worrying about energy, monk is probably the direction to look.

pingu666 · Jun 10, 2007, 01:38 AM // 01:38

ele energy storage is more of a buffer, and 1 of the energy management skills is also really fragile, your attument.

the ss/monk build u posted shows up something which says how good sr is.

the monk has 1 and a half energy management skills, necro has none.

a better compairison is necro vs mesmer.. spell costs roughly the same (10-15e) but u have shit in class energy management

icymanipulator · Jun 10, 2007, 01:46 AM // 01:46

The monk will be spamming the necro will not, that explains the barred energy management perfectly. At best the only spam you will see coming from an SS is copied SS but with a 2 second casting time and a 10 second skill recharge a monk could get off what...5 ZB's in the same timeframe as 2 SS's? Of course they need energy management its 2.5 times the amount of consumed energy on spam.

Yes necros have lousy in house bar-able energy management for curse/blood. If you take death or slug it out with SoLS you are somewhat better. Can't touch inspiration though, mesmers will hand necromancers their asses in in-class energy management.

Edit: Heres a mesmer build, since I agree with you a monk is not a fair comparison nor is it a good example for spamming/energy management purposes.

Me/Any Dom

(Before we get started the build calls for 9 Fast Casting which will be applied to the casting times and will effect the averages) I specifically chose this one because it included Arcane Echo as a common element.

Energy Surge 10e/ 1.3sec/ 20sec
Energy Burn 10e/ 1.3sec/ 20sec
Spiritual Pain 10e/ 3/4sec/ 30sec
Wastrel's Worry 5e/ 1/6sec/ 1sec
Arcane Echo 15e/ 1.3sec/ 30sec
Auspicious Incantation 5e/ 2/3sec/ 25sec
Ether Feast 5e/ 1.3sec/ 8sec
Resurrection Signet N/A

(Averages 9e/ 1sec/ 19sec)

Difference here to a necro is that on this bar you have a spammable offensive spell as well as an energy management spell. The mesmer primary arguably does NOT energy manage if anything it actually COSTS them energy to use FC. That completely explains the need for an energy management skill on the bar. The skill recharges are at least on par with a necro in this example but the average cost of spells is significantly less and FC will of course dramatically reduce casting times. The two classes are fundamentally different in scope so even this isn't really that great of a comparison.

Bryant Again · Jun 10, 2007, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

as for ele... have you gone to high end pve? thats one of the only classes that gets accepted into groups for damage dealing.

Everyone wants an MM. You'll easily get accepted into groups if you do that. If you mean DoA and the like, Necroes get invited into there, too...But if you're pugging such missions, then you're asking for trouble anyways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

most elementalist damage is also immune the the effects of blind and blocking... some of the necro spells are too, but one good blocking stance will nullify a minion army...

If your whole "minion army" is compromised of Bone minions, then that's a problem.

I'm just confused as to how my Necro is "ZOMG NERFED" now. I'm still having fun with him, he still is a great MM...What's the problem?

Taala · Jun 10, 2007, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I wasn't talking about before the MM nerf, which by the way, I was actually for. MMs were once heavy duty, and were nerfed down to a more balanced style of play with the 10 minion limit and Verata's Sacrifice becoming essentially useless. Doesn't have anything to do with SR, though.

You underestimating the damage is what made me reply.
With the three hench team I had back then my minions died fairly fast even with Verata's, often keeping the amount not going past ten. Yet the damage was enough to go through Oro bosses.

"Minions are not great for damage, period. That has always been the case" indeed.

arcanemacabre · Jun 10, 2007, 02:01 AM // 02:01

So which is it? Was the nerf needed because necros were overpowered, or are they still just as effective as before the nerf, and the nerf did absolutely nothing? Can't have it both ways, folks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taala

"Minions are not great for damage, period. That has always been the case" indeed.

Yeah.... umm, I was referring to before the SR nerf - the MM nerf was long enough ago that I thought it was obvious I was talking about after that. I guess not. I'm sorry, I'll try to be a little more clear to the hard-of-understanding among us.

semantic · Jun 10, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

...
I'm just confused as to how my Necro is "ZOMG NERFED" now. I'm still having fun with him, he still is a great MM...What's the problem?

Seriously. I H/H'ed the 2 Gandara missions in HM the other day, with Jurah set up as a Jagged Bomber. It was as trivial for him to get and maintain a full minion army as it was for me to get Masters on both. Appeals to comparison with other classes/builds hold no water when necro still works so freakin well - and in fact is basically irreplaceable (at the current level of functionality) in many situations.

icymanipulator · Jun 10, 2007, 02:27 AM // 02:27

MM is the least effected of all Necromancer builds for one very simple reason.

Animate Bone Fiend 25e
Animate Bone Horror 10e
Animate Bone Minions 15e
Animate Flesh Golem 10e
Animate Shambling Horror 15e
Animate Vampiric Horror 15e

Some combination of a few of these are going to be on any MM's bar and these will also probably be the most expensive spells. Lets say you spec Soul Reaping to 10. Something dies and you will gain 10 energy and a corpse. Right off the bat 2 of these spells are essentially free. Then that minion dies, you gain 10 energy again. With the exception of Bone Fiends you are now in at least a +5 energy benefit net.

If you are still having troubles Consume Corpse is a wonderful thing, but MM's should be the least hit by this change to Soul Reaping.

semantic · Jun 10, 2007, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by icymanipulator

...MM's should be the least hit by this change to Soul Reaping.

That may be the case. If so, then it proves that SR is still amazingly effective. MM is the build that is most 'sensitive' to gaining energy when something dies. The necro must have enough energy to raise a minion when a corpse becomes available, otherwise the build doesn't function. If the effect of current SR functionality is minimal on MM, then SR must be working fine.

Miral · Jun 10, 2007, 03:00 AM // 03:00

actually due to minions providing full SR benefit on death, MM isn't so bad compared to some other builds. though the timer is still completely stupid. thats why I advocate removing the timer and making 0 energy from miniions and spirits, make it balanced all around and fun for all.

Ss Executioner · Jun 10, 2007, 03:02 AM // 03:02

17 pages of the same "I can't spend 150 energy every 10 seconds, waaaah"

Well played gentlemen. You have mastered the art of beating a dead Reeves. (Horse)

How about you learn the bigger picture of the game and actually learn something about a business.

"Worst decision ANET has ever made" somebody stated earlier in the topic... I found this absolutely hillarious, and sad at the same time, that people can be so ignorant.

/QQ

icymanipulator · Jun 10, 2007, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by semantic

That may be the case. If so, then it proves that SR is still amazingly effective. MM is the build that is most 'sensitive' to gaining energy when something dies. The necro must have enough energy to raise a minion when a corpse becomes available, otherwise the build doesn't function. If the effect of current SR functionality is minimal on MM, then SR must be working fine.

Thats not a support to SR's functionality in any way. Just look at the figures I posted and then consider an MM is TWICE as likely to hit 5 second SR windows...once on mob death and a second time on minion death.

Miral · Jun 10, 2007, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ss Executioner

17 pages of the same "I can't spend 150 energy every 10 seconds, waaaah"

Well played gentlemen. You have mastered the art of beating a dead Reeves. (Horse)

How about you learn the bigger picture of the game and actually learn something about a business.

"Worst decision ANET has ever made" somebody stated earlier in the topic... I found this absolutely hillarious, and sad at the same time, that people can be so ignorant.

/QQ

did you bother to read most the thread? a lot of it isn't that people think it didn't need nerfed, but that 1) other things needed nerfed more, and 2) the timer is just dumb and annoying. Oh, and a couple pages worth weren't even about soul reaping. Mind pulling your head out of your ass for a few minutes?

semantic · Jun 10, 2007, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by icymanipulator

Thats not a support to SR's functionality in any way. Just look at the figures I posted and then consider an MM is TWICE as likely to hit 5 second SR windows...once on mob death and a second time on minion death.

I'm not seeing your reasoning there. If the MM is twice as likely to catch the 5s window, it's also twice (at least) as likely to miss out on energy because of multiple deaths within the same window. In fact, the MM probably suffers the most since minions tend to die in bunches in a lot of situations (especially in NF with dervs running around).

MM works = SR works

icymanipulator · Jun 10, 2007, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by semantic

I'm not seeing your reasoning there. If the MM is twice as likely to catch the 5s window, it's also twice (at least) as likely to miss out on energy because of multiple deaths within the same window. In fact, the MM probably suffers the most since minions tend to die in bunches in a lot of situations (especially in NF with dervs running around).

MM works = SR works

If we are talking about the new "leaked" implementation you may have a point. If we are talking about the 5 second timer you are wrong. Take your necro out and run whatever you want, go ahead and load the bar. Run around in a regular H/H team setup.

Now take the same necro out and have an MM in the H/H group. I promise you your energy returns will be dramatically improved. Twice the deaths will dramatically increase the odds of hitting those windows. Maybe double was hyperbole on my part, but they will be vastly improved.

Miral · Jun 10, 2007, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by semantic

I'm not seeing your reasoning there. If the MM is twice as likely to catch the 5s window, it's also twice (at least) as likely to miss out on energy because of multiple deaths within the same window. In fact, the MM probably suffers the most since minions tend to die in bunches in a lot of situations (especially in NF with dervs running around).

MM works = SR works

MM is just different. MM necros and other necros are practically different classes. in fact, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to put most the hexes and stuff in a different class of sorts that has a different primary attribute thats more fitting.... (like gain energy when hexes you cast end?)

semantic · Jun 10, 2007, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by icymanipulator

If we are talking about the new "leaked" implementation you may have a point. If we are talking about the 5 second timer you are wrong. Take your necro out and run whatever you want, go ahead and load the bar. Run around in a regular H/H team setup.

Now take the same necro out and have an MM in the H/H group. I promise you your energy returns will be dramatically improved. Twice the deaths will dramatically increase the odds of hitting those windows. Maybe double was hyperbole on my part, but they will be vastly improved.

Yes, there are more death events with an MM around. More chance to hit a given 5s window, as well as more e-less death events. MM also has the highest e-demands and most time sensitive requirements for the resource. Wasted deaths hurt the MM more than other functions, since new corpses potentially grant no energy to exploit them. I don't even notice the timed limit on e-return running other builds. Maybe my tactics coincide with dropping 1 target every 5s.

SerenityAlum · Jun 10, 2007, 03:34 AM // 03:34

So after the in house trials of Anet, the decision appears to be that the necromancer should be relegated to the role of MM while blood/curse based necromancers are having to fill slots in their bar for energy management. The current "change" appears to have been written by the legal team.

icymanipulator · Jun 10, 2007, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Lots of people who religiously play MM's have had to use Consume Corpse as an added buffer. There is even a very well done guide by Carinae on the benefits of the skill as far as barred energy management. This tells me there are particular builds or circumstances where even MM's are still having problems.

Well we got SS dropped to 10e which is a small victory. I would love to see FoC fixed but due to past abuses I don't see that happening. Blood is not quite as bad off as curses are but its still not as good as it was. Death is the obvious winner of the pack, no question. If Jagged Bones went to pre-nerf ability then Death would be the absolute winner.